Hey Fred, How Do You Print Fast?

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:13 pm

Okay, I finally swapped out my PS to a Meanwell 450 and last night I semi successfully printed some nylon at 250C. So, that got me thinking, how fast can I print some PLA?

I cranked the print temperature up to 240 and am printing a test cube right now. I have a 0.8mm nozzle. I've got the infill set at 150mm/s and the wall speed set at 75mm. I haven't cranked up the bottom layer, but at some point I will.
Other settings: layer height 0.32, width 0.8. (I have ordered an all metal hot end because I don't expect that piece of PTFE to hold up very long in the stock Ender 5 hot end...)

So, @Frederick_Law, got any tips on printing fast?

I also saw in your other post about using HTPLA...What are you using that for and other than being stable at higher temperatures, what are the benefits of that material?

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:31 pm

Doing the above I'm getting a part that's "bowed in" in the X and Y direction. Measured at the corners is spot on in the X and Y. Also, I need to tweak my layer height. I'm getting 19.75mm high instead of 20mm. But, it printed... Drafted it up in SW to show what I mean:

Frederick_Law · Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:05 pm

I've tried 120mm/s. I think print was 100mm/s.
80mm/s is more manageable.
I do print hot, 240, 250.
Adjust, lower your accel or the printer will shake to pieces.
Stiffen the frame. My bed thumb screws keep getting lose.
Also play with extruder cooling. Might need more cooling because you're putting down more plastic.
Keep track of your changes and results.

Frederick_Law · Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:08 pm

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0717/ ... 2897634343
https://www.proto-pasta.com/collections ... -treatable
If you can print ABS, it'll be easier.
Or PTEG?
Heat treating could warp / deform the part.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:03 pm

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:08 pm https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0717/ ... 2897634343
https://www.proto-pasta.com/collections ... -treatable
If you can print ABS, it'll be easier.
Or PTEG?
Heat treating could warp / deform the part.

Thanks for the tips.
I went ahead and bumped the accel down to 200mm/s2 from 500 (cube print speed went from 15min to 18min est. in Cura). What do you have yours set at?
I also lowered the temp to 230. Initially when I set it to 240, I was hoping to push the print speed above 150 mm/s, but Cura won't let me do that. We'll see how the cube comes out next...
I used to print ABS, but I had a printer with an enclosure that I vented outside. Printing ABS smells awful. I really want to like PETG, but it's just a difficult material to deal with. Believe it or not, I've had much better results with TPU with my Bowden setup than PETG.
I keep posting about TPU, but I guess people don't see the benefit. If you print in TPU, you get a good bit of flexure and it'll be a tough part you'll never break. It's great for things around the house. It's so much more versatile than PLA or ABS, IMO.

SPerman · Unread post by **SPerman** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:03 am

I saw a video of a guy who was pushing the limits. He said the biggest challenge was getting the filament hot enough, since it is moving through the hot end so fast. (And then getting it cooled down again once it was on the bed.)

Frederick_Law · Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:16 am

Yes, TPU is crazy. Well PLA too.

5 Years on the car, whole year. Still going.

Frederick_Law · Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:21 am

CURA profile attached.
I have accel at 1500 but I lowered jerk.
Need more testing to get it print faster.
Need to put insulation back on the heater blocks. A crash took them all out.

FMAAID · Unread post by **FMAAID** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:27 pm

If you want to print really fast then build a Voron 3d printer. Open source design

https://vorondesign.com/voron2.4

Frederick_Law · Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 pm

LOL Yeap, the whole table shakes
Mine, hosted in SwYmP:
https://r1132100503382-eu1-3dswym.3dexp ... nBdypTtDzg
https://r1132100503382-eu1-3dswym.3dexp ... 0bvlSx0F_A

SPerman · Unread post by **SPerman** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:28 pm

Got any links that don't require me to log into the pit of dispair?

Frederick_Law · Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:25 pm

Try here:

VID_20200305_233846.mp4: (19.11 MiB) Downloaded 261 times

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:56 pm

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:21 am CURA profile attached.
I have accel at 1500 but I lowered jerk.
Need more testing to get it print faster.
Need to put insulation back on the heater blocks. A crash took them all out.

Thanks Fred,
I'll poke around and copy your settings and see how they work out for me. My all metal hot end should be in today. I have a new LCD on the way, too. So, the 260C limit Creality sets shouldn't be a problem once I install it.

Frederick_Law · Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:16 pm

Mine looks like under extrusion at high speed. Haven't figure out what it is yet. That's why I went back to 80mm/s.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:26 pm

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:16 pm Mine looks like under extrusion at high speed. Haven't figure out what it is yet. That's why I went back to 80mm/s.

I installed the new hot end and printed a test cube at normal temps just to make sure it was level. The Ender 5 comes with a BL Touch and I wasn't sure the Gulf Coast Robotics all metal hot end would be a "drop in" replacement, but it worked!
Before I printed the cube I tried heating the hotend to 250 without the silicone sock because I've read it's important to bring it up to temp and then tighten the nozzle. That didn't work because the cooling fans keep it from getting that hot without the sock. So, I got it to 220 and tightened it down. I'll probably try to heat it up to the 260 that the software allows tomorrow with the sock on and tighten it a bit then, but we'll see.
Unfortunately, I have run out of time tonight to work on the this, but I'm looking forward to copying your settings and seeing how they turn out with my printer.
Thanks for posting that Fred.

Frederick_Law · Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:47 am

Let us know how it goes. I haven't fine tune it enough yet.
Make sure you tight all the bolts.
I use 0.3 nozzle.
Gyroid infill work great.
Adaptive layer helps with details.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:25 am

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:47 am Let us know how it goes. I haven't fine tune it enough yet.
Make sure you tight all the bolts.
I use 0.3 nozzle.
Gyroid infill work great.
Adaptive layer helps with details.

I'll have to tweak your settings. I have a 0.8 nozzle which really helps with speed because it prints faster than a 0.4mm nozzle because the linewidth is twice as wide, also the layer height I have now is 0.32mm which is also thicker than I can get away with when using a 0.4mm nozzle. Before the upgrade I was already printing at 80mm/s. I slowed it down a bit for printing TPU, but with the new hot end, I may just bump the temperature up. Yeah, yeah, I'll get stringing, but I watched a video of a guy who just burns the strings off with a torch. Seems to work pretty well.
I'm thinking with such a wide nozzle I can really push filament through by bumping the temp up. As the guy in the Voron video that @FMAAID posted said, if you have the temperature higher than the manufacturer recommended filament temperature you will not actually be "cooking" the filament if you push the filament through fast enough. That's what I was thinking when I initially bumped the speed and temp up. The PLA I was using has a label stating 180-210. I may have burned it, but I couldn't tell. I guess to be sure, I'd have to do some strength tests or something.

Frederick_Law · Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:41 am

The problem is flow rate and heat transfer.
The plastic need time to melt. You can only extrude so fast before it come out solid.
I've been running 240 250 for a while, no burning.
Print the cube but stop before it print the top. So you can see infill.
I got stringing infill which doesn't give structure.
Maybe make gcode to print a few lines at different speed.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:47 am

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:41 am The problem is flow rate and heat transfer.
The plastic need time to melt. You can only extrude so fast before it come out solid.
I've been running 240 250 for a while, no burning.
Print the cube but stop before it print the top. So you can see infill.
I got stringing infill which doesn't give structure.
Maybe make gcode to print a few lines at different speed.

That's a good idea. I could set up a few "half" test cubes and print them at different temperatures and speeds to see the results in the center. Obviously it'd take some tweaking to lay down the first layer, but by printing them one at a time, this is doable and a good test. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:20 pm

FMAAID wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:27 pm If you want to print really fast then build a Voron 3d printer. Open source design

https://vorondesign.com/voron2.4

Wow @FMAAID! That printer is a beast! I like the idea of a separate power supply for the hot end.
I found a kit for the 13"x13"x13" for around $850. Which isn't as bad as I thought. Maybe I need to sell one of my printers and get that thing?

FMAAID · Unread post by **FMAAID** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:09 pm

The voron will be my next build. I have not seen anything that moves as fast, even industrial printers.

I think most of this 3dprinters magic is in the klipper firmware, it uses a accelerometer to find the fastest movements without sacrificing quality.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:47 pm

FMAAID wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:09 pm The voron will be my next build. I have not seen anything that moves as fast, even industrial printers.

I think most of this 3dprinters magic is in the klipper firmware, it uses a accelerometer to find the fastest movements without sacrificing quality.

I'll watch that when I get home. Problem is that you may end up paying twice for a "kit" then upgrading the components. Or, you've got to piece it together yourself and pay a bunch of different shippers.

I wouldn't mind putting it together, that could actually be fun, but I'd want to order all the parts I want. Really, a 200 watt power supply to power the hot end and the 13x13 bed?...yeah, I don't think so...But that's what gets listed in the BOM and so, any company that puts a kit together lists the 200W meanwell supply.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:05 pm

Hey @Frederick_Law,
I tried your profile, but it lost adhesion about 25% of the way done. I modified it a little bit before printing because as above I have a 0.8mm nozzle. But, I didn't change much. The problem seems to be that the Benchy I downloaded has some writing on the bottom and the nozzle was picking up because of the Z-hop. So, it wasn't sticking properly. The skirt stuck pretty well, so I'm pretty confident it's the Z-hop.
So, I'm trying again with "combing" enabled. I was playing with that before with TPU and it's a great option to prevent stringing, and may work well for printing this Benchy. Take a look at how it works if you haven't. Seems like in most circumstances it would be a good setting. Print time in Cura went from 47 minutes to 42, when I enabled it...FWIW...

Frederick_Law · Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:02 am

mattpeneguy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:47 pm I'll watch that when I get home. Problem is that you may end up paying twice for a "kit" then upgrading the components. Or, you've got to piece it together yourself and pay a bunch of different shippers.

I wouldn't mind putting it together, that could actually be fun, but I'd want to order all the parts I want. Really, a 200 watt power supply to power the hot end and the 13x13 bed?...yeah, I don't think so...But that's what gets listed in the BOM and so, any company that puts a kit together lists the 200W meanwell supply.

Only thing hard to get and expensive are linear rail and truck.
200W power supply? My computer has 500W.

FMAAID · Unread post by **FMAAID** » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:09 pm

anyone use 240v on the bed?
I have that on the printers at work and that eliminated a need for a high power supply.

I use a keenvo bed heating pad @ 240v with a solid state relay that gets 12v signal and turns on the 240v bed or off.

Frederick_Law · Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:25 pm

240V? DC? AC?
We can always use separate PS on heaters.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:32 pm

FMAAID wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:09 pm anyone use 240v on the bed?
I have that on the printers at work and that eliminated a need for a high power supply.

I use a keenvo bed heating pad @ 240v with a solid state relay that gets 12v signal and turns on the 240v bed or off.

Amateur, I use 480V.

FMAAID · Unread post by **FMAAID** » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:10 pm

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:25 pm 240V? DC? AC?
We can always use separate PS on heaters.

I meant 240v AC, but you know there is nothing stopping someone from running 240v DC

My mainboard runs on 24v DC

Frederick_Law · Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:31 pm

I got 110AC here 220AC is for the oven. Illegal to use extension cord.
And voltage doesn't matter, P=VI. 200W is 200W different voltage, different current. Still need 200W.

FMAAID · Unread post by **FMAAID** » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:39 pm

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:31 pm I got 110AC here 220AC is for the oven. Illegal to use extension cord.
And voltage doesn't matter, P=VI. 200W is 200W different voltage, different current. Still need 200W.

The main benefit of using a 120v or 240v AC bed heater is to offload the current draw from the 12v DC power supply and speed up heating time.

My bed runs right out of the wall, no power supply needed just the relay.

Before it took forever to heat up a 300mm or 400mm bed on 12v, now it takes 5 minutes.

Frederick_Law · Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:44 pm

Got similar problem. Change the 20Ga "power" wire to 14Ga and its fixed. Current draw is 13A on 12V with everything power on.

Frederick_Law · Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:57 am

Since we're talking about Klipper:
https://all3dp.com/2/klipper-firmware-3d-printer/

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:17 am

@Frederick_Law,
Are you running Klipper?

Frederick_Law · Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:47 am

Not yet. Looks like a good upgrade.
I'm running Repetier.

Frederick_Law · Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:06 am

Klipper is great 3D printer firmware but can be a bit tricky to set up. Read on to learn how to install Klipper on an Ender 3 V2!
https://all3dp.com/2/klipper-ender-3-v2/

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:28 pm

Hey @FMAAID,
Have you seen the kits on Formbot? For $1k shipped you get everything you need except the printed pieces. I'd just order those though, because my printer is in my house and I'm done with printing in ABS in the house...
https://www.formbot3d.com/products/voro ... for-choice

Something else to consider...what do you think of this machine (HevORT)?

FMAAID · Unread post by **FMAAID** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:52 am

That is a nice kit, even comes with the latest BTT octo board.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:04 pm

Here's a live build:

It's 24 hours, though.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:06 pm

Hey @FMAAID and @Frederick_Law,
What do you think of the Rat Rig? The Teaching Tech guy built one and has some videos on it I watched this weekend.
Here's the configuration site:
https://www.ratrig.com/3d-printing-cnc/ ... rable.html

Frederick_Law · Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:51 pm

Looks good but expensive.
Linear rail are great and are the most expensive part.
I was planning to build similar printer.
XY fixed on top. Bed on Z moving down.
This way, less mass on XY so it can move fast.
I think the 3 linear on Z is way over kill.
3 ball screws on belt should be good enough.
Of course I'll want multi-extruders.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:40 am

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:51 pm Looks good but expensive.
Linear rail are great and are the most expensive part.
I was planning to build similar printer.
XY fixed on top. Bed on Z moving down.
This way, less mass on XY so it can move fast.
I think the 3 linear on Z is way over kill.
3 ball screws on belt should be good enough.
Of course I'll want multi-extruders.

Anybody have a design on a multi-extruder that raises the print head you aren't using at the time? Dual extruders are great but the unused print head can cause problems when not in use.

Frederick_Law · Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 am

There are change head like CNC.

mattpeneguy · Unread post by **mattpeneguy** » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:38 am

Frederick_Law wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 am There are change head like CNC.

@Frederick_Law,
That seems excessive to me. I get it that with such a system you could have 10 different print heads, or something crazy like that, but for most 2 nozzles is all that's needed.
It seems if you limit the system to 2 nozzles you could make it much simpler, correct?

Frederick_Law · Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:19 am

https://e3d-online.com/pages/toolchanger
https://hackaday.com/2020/07/18/tool-ch ... -the-bank/
If you use same material, a mixing hotend will work.
https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=mixing+hotend ... 0_ts-doa-p

Frederick_Law · Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:36 am

My "plan".
Multiple hotend for different materials on same part.
Mixing head for color.
Laser and cutting head.

I got 2 hotend running on Mks 1.4. Will need better board to run more hotend. Or build a "multiplexer" to switch control.
And yes, one nozzle is a bit lower and drag on print. Need to adjust it. Tilt the head so they're on same level.
Or design new head so height is adjustable.
Also they're printing on different XY. It is fixed in software with offset.

The head don't need to be accurate. Just need to be repeatable.