CAD Forum

Just my 2 cents on the subject of data security in the cloud:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKBN2B20NU

And what you should also consider because of the current unpleasant situation in Ukraine. An e-shelter can be a worthwhile target for a retaliatory strike to inflict significant damage on a country's economy.

Adrian_V21 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:26 pm It's certainly not for everyone, specially for highly automated environment like you mentioned. We have had issues with SW when IT force-deploys Windows updates or AntiVirus/Firewall changes... so we were not except from issues even without updating our SolidWorks installations, all of this has been eliminated with Onshape. The risk of something going wrong will never be zero, but the cost of testing and validating is 0.

I disagree, the cost is never zero. The cost of not being able to test and validate is extremely high if an update breaks functionality you use daily. You now are in damage control mode and having to develop work arounds. Not just SolidWorks, our org rolled an MS Access update without testing or even telling us and it broke several of our custom DBs. We are able to fix it, but it takes code changes in each DB. Proper planning and testing would've avoided it.

Onshape is a cool product, and for a small operation it works well. Bit pricey IMO, and I don't like the idea of having my data held hostage if I want to go elsewhere. Can I bulk export everything including the "Release" workflow data?

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:57 pm I disagree, the cost is never zero. The cost of not being able to test and validate is extremely high if an update breaks functionality you use daily. You now are in damage control mode and having to develop work arounds. Not just SolidWorks, our org rolled an MS Access update without testing or even telling us and it broke several of our custom DBs. We are able to fix it, but it takes code changes in each DB. Proper planning and testing would've avoided it.

Onshape is a cool product, and for a small operation it works well. Bit pricey IMO, and I don't like the idea of having my data held hostage if I want to go elsewhere. Can I bulk export everything including the "Release" workflow data?

Pricey? Onshape's price is about the same as SWX maintenance, but without the initial purchase price. You can stop paying on your subscription and all that does is put your private data on hold; it doesn't delete anything. You can reactivate/deactivate your account at any time. Reactivation picks up right where you left off.

Every three weeks Onshape publishes their updates and EVERYONE is on the same version so there is no version compatibility issues. How many times do we see issues with people on this forum with an older version like SWX2018 not being able to open a file with a solution because it is in SWX2021? How many times do we see complaints about new bugs with a SWX service pack? That alone is something I find very attractive about Onshape. When my current SWX maintenance expires it is very likely that I'll be moving over to Onshape for all new projects, keeping SWX only for legacy or when the version compatibility is not an issue.

I think if you were to get a free account, which allows you to explore to your heart's content without commitment, you might discover quite a lot to like about Onshape.

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am Pricey? Onshape's price is about the same as SWX maintenance, but without the initial purchase price. You can stop paying on your subscription and all that does is put your private data on hold; it doesn't delete anything. You can reactivate/deactivate your account at any time. Reactivation picks up right where you left off.

Every three weeks Onshape publishes their updates and EVERYONE is on the same version so there is no version compatibility issues. How many times do we see issues with people on this forum with an older version like SWX2018 not being able to open a file with a solution because it is in SWX2021? How many times do we see complaints about new bugs with a SWX service pack? That alone is something I find very attractive about Onshape. When my current SWX maintenance expires it is very likely that I'll be moving over to Onshape for all new projects, keeping SWX only for legacy or when the version compatibility is not an issue.

I think if you were to get a free account, which allows you to explore to your heart's content without commitment, you might discover quite a lot to like about Onshape.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in that situation aren't your files still being held hostage? If I understand you correctly, if you want to change platforms and stop paying the subscription you still can't access them.

Glenn Schroeder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:55 am Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in that situation aren't your files still being held hostage? If I understand you correctly, if you want to change platforms and stop paying the subscription you still can't access them.

If I were to suspend my license for a time I would make sure to export all the files before deactivation.

Since I am not an active user at the moment I am not sure of this, but I thought they also had a means to access the files after suspension just so a person could export their files.

Perhaps someone on this forum that is an active Onshape user could chime in and clear up a few of these speculations.

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am Pricey? Onshape's price is about the same as SWX maintenance, but without the initial purchase price. You can stop paying on your subscription and all that does is put your private data on hold; it doesn't delete anything. You can reactivate/deactivate your account at any time. Reactivation picks up right where you left off.

Can I access my previous data with the free account if I drop maintenance? Onshape cost is per user right? I have 150 users sharing 55 floating licenses. Assuming $1500 per license, Onshape = $225,000, SolidWorks = $82,500

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am Every three weeks Onshape publishes their updates and EVERYONE is on the same version so there is no version compatibility issues.

What about custom add-in's and thirds party applications? There are no issues?

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am How many times do we see issues with people on this forum with an older version like SWX2018 not being able to open a file with a solution because it is in SWX2021?

Yes, but if they had stayed on maintenance and upgraded the moment a new version was released, this wouldn't be an issue. Onshape removes this issue by taking away a customers choice to upgrade when they are ready, and pay maintenance or not.

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am How many times do we see complaints about new bugs with a SWX service pack? That alone is something I find very attractive about Onshape.

So Onshape is bug free? Call me skeptical or just cynical in my old age but I've yet to find too many software programs free of bugs, especially ones that release new builds frequently.

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am When my current SWX maintenance expires it is very likely that I'll be moving over to Onshape for all new projects, keeping SWX only for legacy or when the version compatibility is not an issue.

Good thing you aren't going the other way, you would have to continue to pay Onshape maintenance or periodically reactivate it to maintain legacy data right?

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:36 am I think if you were to get a free account, which allows you to explore to your heart's content without commitment, you might discover quite a lot to like about Onshape.

I've had a free account since 2016. And don't get me wrong, I like Onshape and may even consider it in a smaller environment. I like that it's easy to get into and no need to install or mess with installation issues. But once you you get into a larger more complicated environment, cost gets higher for above reasons. Maybe if they let me buy the "server" version of their software an host it myself for our company? Then I could control the upgrade process.

Glenn Schroeder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:55 am Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in that situation aren't your files still being held hostage? If I understand you correctly, if you want to change platforms and stop paying the subscription you still can't access them.

Yeah, it would be a save as parasolid exodus. Which would be fine for groups working with direct editing.

Is there anyway to automate that? Does onshape support any kind of batch processing of files?

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:31 am Can I access my previous data with the free account if I drop maintenance? Onshape cost is per user right? I have 150 users sharing 55 floating licenses. Assuming $1500 per license, Onshape = $225,000, SolidWorks = $82,500


What about custom add-in's and thirds party applications? There are no issues?



Yes, but if they had stayed on maintenance and upgraded the moment a new version was released, this wouldn't be an issue. Onshape removes this issue by taking away a customers choice to upgrade when they are ready, and pay maintenance or not.



So Onshape is bug free? Call me skeptical or just cynical in my old age but I've yet to find too many software programs free of bugs, especially ones that release new builds frequently.



Good thing you aren't going the other way, you would have to continue to pay Onshape maintenance or periodically reactivate it to maintain legacy data right?



I've had a free account since 2016. And don't get me wrong, I like Onshape and may even consider it in a smaller environment. I like that it's easy to get into and no need to install or mess with installation issues. But once you you get into a larger more complicated environment, cost gets higher for above reasons. Maybe if they let me buy the "server" version of their software an host it myself for our company? Then I could control the upgrade process.

Consider me thoroughly thrashed.

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:31 am Can I access my previous data with the free account if I drop maintenance? Onshape cost is per user right? I have 150 users sharing 55 floating licenses. Assuming $1500 per license, Onshape = $225,000, SolidWorks = $82,500


What about custom add-in's and thirds party applications? There are no issues?
[...]

I totally agree with you on most points.

Now look at the other side:
You have a small team (maybe even alone), no floating licenses.
Maybe it's only a side business.
You don't want to spend a crazy amount on hardware.
You don't have a lot of office space yet.

Hello Onshape. Even let's you try out real life scenario stuff without paying for it initially and without a time limit ('only 30 days').
Anybody else out there? I don't think so.

DennisD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:36 am Consider me thoroughly thrashed.

Sorry....I know I tend to get long winded I really do like Onshape in a lot of ways and was excited about it years ago. The PTC purchase worried me some but if they're smart they will leave it alone and let it do what its good at. I'm not crazy about software moving to the SAAS model.

berg_lauritz wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:07 pm I totally agree with you on most points.

Now look at the other side:
You have a small team (maybe even alone), no floating licenses.
Maybe it's only a side business.
You don't want to spend a crazy amount on hardware.
You don't have a lot of office space yet.

Hello Onshape. Even let's you try out real life scenario stuff without paying for it initially and without a time limit ('only 30 days').
Anybody else out there? I don't think so.

I agree, if I was starting a business I would consider it as well. It functions very close to how SolidWorks does so you can hit the ground running almost. And much less startup cost always helps.

Glenn Schroeder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:55 am Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in that situation aren't your files still being held hostage? If I understand you correctly, if you want to change platforms and stop paying the subscription you still can't access them.

You well still have access to export your files, just not modify/create data.

"Can I access my previous data with the free account if I drop maintenance? Onshape cost is per user right? I have 150 users sharing 55 floating licenses. Assuming $1500 per license, Onshape = $225,000, SolidWorks = $82,500"

Enterprise environment can be tailored, is not a straight forward 1-to-1; with SWx we had 300 installations running on 30 licenses and about 50 for PDM. We are saving money with the move to Onshape! The concept of Light User reduces considerably the need for full SWx licenses in our environment.



"So Onshape is bug free? Call me skeptical or just cynical in my old age but I've yet to find too many software programs free of bugs, especially ones that release new builds frequently."

Is not bug free, but is certainly not bug full like SW. and those bugs don't cause crashes and lost work. The updates every 3 weeks are typically 20% bug fixes. It's all transparent https://www.onshape.com/en/changelog/




"Good thing you aren't going the other way, you would have to continue to pay Onshape maintenance or periodically reactivate it to maintain legacy data right?"

SolidWorks is considerably increasing the cost Network and perpetual licenses, they are pushing for a Permanent subscription model, and without the benefits IMO.



"Maybe if they let me buy the "server" version of their software an host it myself for our company? Then I could control the upgrade process."

Onshape is a Service, and they are not shy about being clear of that. I don't believe they would ever offer this as an option.

Dropping your subscription does not require you to move to another platform. What's wrong with being five years out of date? Unless your customers or vendors force you to upgrade, the old version will keep working the same way it always has. As an added benefit, no upgrades means you don't have to upgrade your hardware either.

Uncle_Hairball wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:44 pm Dropping your subscription does not require you to move to another platform. What's wrong with being five years out of date? Unless your customers or vendors force you to upgrade, the old version will keep working the same way it always has. . . .

. . . until you get a new computer with a new operating system that doesn't play nice with old versions of SW.

Glenn Schroeder wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:34 pm . . . until you get a new computer with a new operating system that doesn't play nice with old versions of SW.

Yea, I think the MS OS strategy for Windows 10/11 with the perpetual updates was: So the customers don't want to support the hardware/software ecosystem with needless updates... Watch this!

KennyG wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:39 am Yea, I think the MS OS strategy for Windows 10/11 with the perpetual updates was: So the customers don't want to support the hardware/software ecosystem with needless updates... Watch this!

FWIW.. I can still run 2014 on my new Win10 OS. .. Meh..

Uncle_Hairball wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:44 pm Dropping your subscription does not require you to move to another platform. What's wrong with being five years out of date? Unless your customers or vendors force you to upgrade, the old version will keep working the same way it always has. As an added benefit, no upgrades means you don't have to upgrade your hardware either.

I wholeheartedly agree with this philosophy. The latest is not always the greatest..
That said tho, I am kinda ok with 2022..

I am now dropping my subs and going to just cruise on this one for a bit.

Tho I am NOT looking forward to being forced to update down the track a bit for any of your stated reasons and therefor cop the backdating charges..
I am still deciding whether I want to give my VAR any more $$$ for the "nothing" they do for me..
https://www.cadforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=2022 (Reduced Helpdesk Access Subscription)

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:31 am Can I access my previous data with the free account if I drop maintenance? Onshape cost is per user right? I have 150 users sharing 55 floating licenses.

Geez, that must be a pain to deal with. Is it because some users who are not part of the engineering team still have access to a SolidWorks license in case they want to view files directly with SolidWorks rather then eDrawings..? I can't imagine having 1 licence per 3 users here.

We're 5 engineers and 8 draftsman/conceptors. Draftsman and conceptors all have fixed licenses to have permanent access to their license because they require it full time. Our engineers share 4 floating licenses between the 5 of them. There used to be 6 but one of them has been relocated to manage another factory of ours. With 6, we had some instances where someone would need a licence and there were none available, but it rarely ever occurs now with 5 sharing 4 licences.

AlexLachance wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:31 am Geez, that must be a pain to deal with. Is it because some users who are not part of the engineering team still have access to a SolidWorks license in case they want to view files directly with SolidWorks rather then eDrawings..? I can't imagine having 1 licence per 3 users here.

We're 5 engineers and 8 draftsman/conceptors. Draftsman and conceptors all have fixed licenses to have permanent access to their license because they require it full time. Our engineers share 4 floating licenses between the 5 of them. There used to be 6 but one of them has been relocated to manage another factory of ours. With 6, we had some instances where someone would need a licence and there were none available, but it rarely ever occurs now with 5 sharing 4 licences.

We have multiple engineering groups: Product Development, Contract, Manufacturing, Quality. In each of those groups we have mechanical engineers, drafter/designers, electrical engineers, test engineers, mfg techs. Only the drafter/designers are in SolidWorks everyday / all day. The mechanical engineers use SolidWorks often but not every day. Electrical, Test, and Mfg only use it once in a while. The Mfg techs are just using it to create DXF files as needed for sheet metal.

There are a few outlier groups like Technical Publications that use it for extracting views for documentation and manuals. We have PDM which includes eDrawings Pro. Not sure how many use it, but if I included them that would be 500+ people. Most just view drawings which are in PDF format in PDM.

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:42 am We have multiple engineering groups: Product Development, Contract, Manufacturing, Quality. In each of those groups we have mechanical engineers, drafter/designers, electrical engineers, test engineers, mfg techs. Only the drafter/designers are in SolidWorks everyday / all day. The mechanical engineers use SolidWorks often but not every day. Electrical, Test, and Mfg only use it once in a while. The Mfg techs are just using it to create DXF files as needed for sheet metal.

There are a few outlier groups like Technical Publications that use it for extracting views for documentation and manuals. We have PDM which includes eDrawings Pro. Not sure ho many use it but if I included them that would 500+ people. Most just view drawings which are in PDF format in PDM.

Jason, we are configured similar and there is no way we could survive without the flexibility and economy of concurrent floating licensing. We run SE at about a 3.6:1 ratio.

Another thing no one mentions is the administration piece of named user subscription... If an account is required for each user on the software vendor's licensing portal, somebody at the customer site has to admin this by registering the users and assigning the licenses, or moving the license as personnel changes. And if it is always at 1:1, then you are in a constant "purchasing mode" if adding staff here and there. Don't have to deal with this at all with the concurrent floating model...

KennyG wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:31 pm Jason, we are configured similar and there is no way we could survive without the flexibility and economy of concurrent floating licensing. We run SE at about a 3.6:1 ratio.

Another thing no one mentions is the administration piece of named user subscription... If an account is required for each user on the software vendor's licensing portal, somebody at the customer site has to admin this by registering the users and assigning the licenses, or moving the license as personnel changes. And if it is always at 1:1, then you are in a constant "purchasing mode" if adding staff here and there. Don't have to deal with this at all with the concurrent floating model...

I thought this needed copied in bold and larger font.

KennyG wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:31 pm Jason, we are configured similar and there is no way we could survive without the flexibility and economy of concurrent floating licensing. We run SE at about a 3.6:1 ratio.

Another thing no one mentions is the administration piece of named user subscription... If an account is required for each user on the software vendor's licensing portal, somebody at the customer site has to admin this by registering the users and assigning the licenses, or moving the license as personnel changes. And if it is always at 1:1, then you are in a constant "purchasing mode" if adding staff here and there. Don't have to deal with this at all with the concurrent floating model...

Yeah, luckily I don't have to manage Autodesk products here, it's like that. I have other software that is node locked to individual's machines and it's fun playing musical chairs trying to figure out who has a license and when someone has left the company and the license is available, or do I need to purchase a new license Then get with the vendor to release the license since the machine has long since been wiped.

Windchill is named user. While I don't manage the users directly in the system, I get the privilege of tracking and telling the Windchill admins who still needs which licenses and who is not here anymore. Not easy with hundreds of users.

bnemec wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:04 pm I thought this needed copied in bold and larger font.

This is not true, the Enterprise level environment can be tailored or negotiated if that makes more sense. Both you and Onshape have full visibility of usage/activity in the analytics, so if a 1:1 is not a realistic plan for your company, it is not a "locked" model.

Adrian_V21 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:03 pm This is not true, the Enterprise level environment can be tailored or negotiated if that makes more sense. Both you and Onshape have full visibility of usage/activity in the analytics, so if a 1:1 is not a realistic plan for your company, it is not a "locked" model.

So you are saying that a customer company can purchase, say 10 seats, and have 15 users where any 10 of the 15 users can be using the product/service at a time? The licensing doesn't care what the username or profile name is, if the user is associated with the account that has 10 licenses and not all 10 are in use that user will be able to use the product/service?

bnemec wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:11 pm So you are saying that a customer company can purchase, say 10 seats, and have 15 users where any 10 of the 15 users can be using the product/service at a time? The licensing doesn't care what the username or profile name is, if the user is associated with the account that has 10 licenses and not all 10 are in use that user will be able to use the product/service?

Doesn't look like it:
https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/18 ... ng-license

I imagine and admin can go in and revoke a license from a user and give it to someone else but that's not a floating concurrent license model. Windchill is the same, you have to go in and assign licenses to users. We are constantly playing reassign the licenses, doesn't take long but still annoying.

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:33 pm Doesn't look like it:
https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/18 ... ng-license

I imagine and admin can go in and revoke a license from a user and give it to someone else but that's not a floating concurrent license model. Windchill is the same, you have to go in and assign licenses to users. We are constantly playing reassign the licenses, doesn't take long but still annoying.

I would be surprised if any SaaS or Paas offered "floating" licenses in that way. If one would do it I can see them having a significant marketing advantage over the popular predominant model of "role" licensing. We checked into the 3DX licensing model, as much as one can, several times and if we (VAR included) understand correctly there are limits to how many times a user can be moved into or out of a role in a given period of time. Also checked into having generic usernames like CADuser001 and SIMuser001 for example and have the employee sign in as that "user"; that would be violation of the EUA. Buyers don't like this idea of buying something knowing up front that it will not have high utilization.

bnemec wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:11 pm So you are saying that a customer company can purchase, say 10 seats, and have 15 users where any 10 of the 15 users can be using the product/service at a time? The licensing doesn't care what the username or profile name is, if the user is associated with the account that has 10 licenses and not all 10 are in use that user will be able to use the product/service?

I can not confirm or deny

bnemec wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:46 pm I would be surprised if any SaaS or Paas offered "floating" licenses in that way. If one would do it I can see them having a significant marketing advantage over the popular predominant model of "role" licensing. We checked into the 3DX licensing model, as much as one can, several times and if we (VAR included) understand correctly there are limits to how many times a user can be moved into or out of a role in a given period of time. Also checked into having generic usernames like CADuser001 and SIMuser001 for example and have the employee sign in as that "user"; that would be violation of the EUA. Buyers don't like this idea of buying something knowing up front that it will not have high utilization.

We'll I can say there's a rea$on we stopped looking into 3DX and continued our exploration of Onshape.

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:41 am I can guarantee in a larger environment they would break something. An automatic update that I'm not able to test in our environment which is heavily automated would cripple our business. I'm required to have a rollback plan in case things go south. How do I do that with Onshape? They would have to contractually guarantee me same day fixes for any critical issue we find.

For now, that pie will have to stay in the sky.

They seem to have a pretty robust test and validation system for their live servers;
But, for an automated environment, I guess your automations would need to be part of their validation process.

Inventor Sheet Metal was behind SW in the beginning.
Now, I'll say on par or better.

Inventor weldment is in assembly, not multibody.
IV weldment is "weldment", not structure or frame like SW.
Any part can be "weld" together in assembly.
Frame Gen is for frame. ie "weldment" or structure system in SW.
Model State is a copy of "config".

Frame cutlist works with BOM/partlist.
User can set QTY to length or ea.
No hacking required.

mgibeault wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:01 am They seem to have a pretty robust test and validation system for their live servers;
But, for an automated environment, I guess your automations would need to be part of their validation process.

Their test and validation doesn't include our process, so it's not a proper test and validation of our systems, IMO.

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:50 am Their test and validation doesn't include our process, so it's not a proper test and validation of our systems, IMO.

Exactly what I meant.
You would have to lobby them to include these. My guess is this would be possible.

mgibeault wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:06 pm Exactly what I meant.
You would have to lobby them to include these. My guess is this would be possible.

Being they are smaller, you probably could get them to include you if you are one of their larger customers. Dassault on the other hand.....

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:11 pm Being they are smaller, you probably could get them to include you if you are one of their larger customers. Dassault on the other hand.....

Yes, they already offered us some "custom" work and we're still only evaluating.

jcapriotti wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:11 pm Being they are smaller, you probably could get them to include you if you are one of their larger customers. Dassault on the other hand.....

There are also advance tools for backend integrations with other systems/and services in your organization, we are exploring what we can do with Splunk.